Vignette: Balance of Justice
Nov. 30th, 2005 07:54 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
honoratby Honorat
Rating: G
Character: Norrington
Disclaimer: I am an almost innocent fanfic writer.
Summary: The night before Jack Sparrow's hanging, Norrington has a sleepless night. For the "Things to Come" challenge at Black Pearl Sails.
* * * * *
It is long past midnight, but Commodore Norrington does not sleep. He has had to write another letter today—the fifteenth so far. He prays to God this is the last one. At least this time he can honestly tell the grieving parents or wife or sweetheart that the young man died a hero in the service of others. The elimination of Barbossa and his murderous crew will bring blessed relief to the entire Caribbean. Not that this knowledge will provide any comfort. But sometimes Norrington needs to know that this mowing down of the flower of British youth makes some difference, that the tears that fall are not in vain. Tonight he could almost envy the men who have served their country with their deaths. The strain of serving with his life seems an unbearable burden.
Tomorrow he will be present at another hanging. He has never relished hangings as some of his men do. They are merely part of his bitter responsibility to make this territory safe and productive for the law-abiding citizens who live and do business here. If he could rejoice in this wholesale dealing of death, now would certainly be the time, for he has never condemned a more merciless, murderous lot of cutthroats—but he merely feels an exhausted desire for the whole sordid business to be over. He wishes that at least these executions could be private—sober, just retribution—not the carnival deterrents for the mob’s entertainment that they must be.
Absentmindedly, he shuffles the paperwork for his next day’s schedule. A name catches his eye, and he flips back through the pages. Jack Sparrow. Oh. Not one of Barbossa’s lot tomorrow, then. One month ago, that name would have meant nothing more nor less to him than Barbossa’s name. A pirate. One of that vile and dissolute lot of men it has been his goal to eliminate. His duty still demands the man’s execution. This is what Elizabeth refuses to understand.
Slowly he rereads the list of crimes of which Sparrow has been convicted, trying to regain that surety he felt the first time he placed that eccentric pirate in chains. Piracy, smuggling, impersonating an officer of the Spanish Royal Navy, impersonating a cleric of the Church of England. The corner of James’ mouth quirks ever so slightly. What he wouldn’t give to know the stories behind those last two. The moment of good humour is fleeting. The truth behind these charges will forever be beyond human reach shortly after dawn. Sailing under false colours, arson, kidnapping, looting, poaching, brigandage, pilfering, depravity, depredation, and general lawlessness.
Norrington can’t help noticing the glaring absence of one charge. Murder. Surely that is an oversight. The man could not have amassed such a record without once being convicted of murder. It does not matter to the law. Any one of those crimes with which Sparrow is actually charged carries the penalty of death. But it matters to the commodore. If, indeed, the man is not a murderer, it leaves Norrington free to regret the necessity of the morrow’s business.
Even more bitterly, he regrets his inability to persuade Elizabeth not to attend that hanging. No possible good can come of it, of that he is sure. It is bad enough that ladies attend such events at all, but for a girl to see a friend die such a death . . . James shivers. There is nothing pretty about a death by hanging. In fact, he expects Sparrow’s death to be particularly ugly. The pirate is not a heavy man.
He knows that gallows will stand between Elizabeth and himself forever, an upraised and flaming sword, as his consent to abandon Will Turner already does. He never imagined being betrothed to the woman of his dreams could be so painful. Her eyes—he can scarcely control a flinch when he meets that dark agony. Will he ever be able to lose himself in those beautiful eyes? Or will he always find his judge and executioner in them? She has accused him, questioning the morality of any act that a man does not wish a woman to witness. And his conscience writhes. She has defended Sparrow, flinging at James the terrors she has endured and from which the pirate has rescued her—as though James’ memory of his inability to save his love were not already carved on his heart. She has begged him; the proud Elizabeth Swann has humbled herself to the dust for the sake of that pirate. Oh God, how he wishes it were within his power to give her anything she asks of him.
And he curses Jack Sparrow for ever entering their lives, even as he knows that if the pirate had not been there, Elizabeth would be dead and Barbossa would still have unimpeded power in the Caribbean. It galls Norrington to be obliged to execute a man to whom he must also be eternally grateful.
The list of debts they owe to Sparrow superimposes itself in shadowy script over the bold, black lines of the charges for which the pirate will answer with his undefended flesh on the morn. Where does the balance of justice lie?
A slender shaft of pale gray light sifts through the shutters. Outside his window, birds begin their morning hymn. Dawn. One line of the text on his desk is illuminated: And for these crimes you have been sentenced to be, on this day, hung by the neck until dead. May God have mercy on your soul.
May God have mercy on your soul, Jack Sparrow. May God have mercy on mine.
Rating: G
Character: Norrington
Disclaimer: I am an almost innocent fanfic writer.
Summary: The night before Jack Sparrow's hanging, Norrington has a sleepless night. For the "Things to Come" challenge at Black Pearl Sails.
* * * * *
It is long past midnight, but Commodore Norrington does not sleep. He has had to write another letter today—the fifteenth so far. He prays to God this is the last one. At least this time he can honestly tell the grieving parents or wife or sweetheart that the young man died a hero in the service of others. The elimination of Barbossa and his murderous crew will bring blessed relief to the entire Caribbean. Not that this knowledge will provide any comfort. But sometimes Norrington needs to know that this mowing down of the flower of British youth makes some difference, that the tears that fall are not in vain. Tonight he could almost envy the men who have served their country with their deaths. The strain of serving with his life seems an unbearable burden.
Tomorrow he will be present at another hanging. He has never relished hangings as some of his men do. They are merely part of his bitter responsibility to make this territory safe and productive for the law-abiding citizens who live and do business here. If he could rejoice in this wholesale dealing of death, now would certainly be the time, for he has never condemned a more merciless, murderous lot of cutthroats—but he merely feels an exhausted desire for the whole sordid business to be over. He wishes that at least these executions could be private—sober, just retribution—not the carnival deterrents for the mob’s entertainment that they must be.
Absentmindedly, he shuffles the paperwork for his next day’s schedule. A name catches his eye, and he flips back through the pages. Jack Sparrow. Oh. Not one of Barbossa’s lot tomorrow, then. One month ago, that name would have meant nothing more nor less to him than Barbossa’s name. A pirate. One of that vile and dissolute lot of men it has been his goal to eliminate. His duty still demands the man’s execution. This is what Elizabeth refuses to understand.
Slowly he rereads the list of crimes of which Sparrow has been convicted, trying to regain that surety he felt the first time he placed that eccentric pirate in chains. Piracy, smuggling, impersonating an officer of the Spanish Royal Navy, impersonating a cleric of the Church of England. The corner of James’ mouth quirks ever so slightly. What he wouldn’t give to know the stories behind those last two. The moment of good humour is fleeting. The truth behind these charges will forever be beyond human reach shortly after dawn. Sailing under false colours, arson, kidnapping, looting, poaching, brigandage, pilfering, depravity, depredation, and general lawlessness.
Norrington can’t help noticing the glaring absence of one charge. Murder. Surely that is an oversight. The man could not have amassed such a record without once being convicted of murder. It does not matter to the law. Any one of those crimes with which Sparrow is actually charged carries the penalty of death. But it matters to the commodore. If, indeed, the man is not a murderer, it leaves Norrington free to regret the necessity of the morrow’s business.
Even more bitterly, he regrets his inability to persuade Elizabeth not to attend that hanging. No possible good can come of it, of that he is sure. It is bad enough that ladies attend such events at all, but for a girl to see a friend die such a death . . . James shivers. There is nothing pretty about a death by hanging. In fact, he expects Sparrow’s death to be particularly ugly. The pirate is not a heavy man.
He knows that gallows will stand between Elizabeth and himself forever, an upraised and flaming sword, as his consent to abandon Will Turner already does. He never imagined being betrothed to the woman of his dreams could be so painful. Her eyes—he can scarcely control a flinch when he meets that dark agony. Will he ever be able to lose himself in those beautiful eyes? Or will he always find his judge and executioner in them? She has accused him, questioning the morality of any act that a man does not wish a woman to witness. And his conscience writhes. She has defended Sparrow, flinging at James the terrors she has endured and from which the pirate has rescued her—as though James’ memory of his inability to save his love were not already carved on his heart. She has begged him; the proud Elizabeth Swann has humbled herself to the dust for the sake of that pirate. Oh God, how he wishes it were within his power to give her anything she asks of him.
And he curses Jack Sparrow for ever entering their lives, even as he knows that if the pirate had not been there, Elizabeth would be dead and Barbossa would still have unimpeded power in the Caribbean. It galls Norrington to be obliged to execute a man to whom he must also be eternally grateful.
The list of debts they owe to Sparrow superimposes itself in shadowy script over the bold, black lines of the charges for which the pirate will answer with his undefended flesh on the morn. Where does the balance of justice lie?
A slender shaft of pale gray light sifts through the shutters. Outside his window, birds begin their morning hymn. Dawn. One line of the text on his desk is illuminated: And for these crimes you have been sentenced to be, on this day, hung by the neck until dead. May God have mercy on your soul.
May God have mercy on your soul, Jack Sparrow. May God have mercy on mine.
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no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 03:10 pm (UTC)Meep
Date: 2005-11-30 03:25 pm (UTC)At last, we have been presented with a proper, decent sized insight into WHY Norrington allowed both the hanging and the escape.
At last we have been presented with a tangible description of his morality and ethics, which were barely touched upon in the movie - that moment of dithering, while the Governor spoke about piracy being the right course being the only example of genuine conflict I can recall.
At last, we understand why he found it so hard to meet Elizabeth's eyes standing before the gallows.
If I were to quote you my favourite lines, I'd simply end up repeating the entire fic, so I will limit myself to three quotations.
"The strain of serving with his life seems an unbearable burden."
Such a simple sentence hauntingly brings home the fact that the burden of command is ndeed a terrible one, and a new one for him, at least on the scale of numbers subordinate to a Commodore.
"His duty still demands the man's execution. This is what Elizabeth refuses to understand."
A girl as privileged and cosseted as Elizabeth, doubtless would have very little understanding of duty, but this also implies that she does not wish to understand - she is in denial about the unsavoury aspects of Jack Sparrow's career. Well said. (Unless I've got it wrong ;-D)
"May God have mercy on your soul, Jack Sparrow. May God have mercy on mine."
Fantastic final line. A real sense of closure - of a chapter, of the night, etc. Also, it explains to me why James was so stung by Will's clear conscience. The debate inside his mind would have no right answer, no real way to clear his conscience. Jack was no murderer, but the law cannot be taken lightly, and for a man as dutybound and moral as James, this becomes a tragic paradox. He will damn his soul in order to do what the law believes is right, no matter his own feelings on the matter.
Wow. Excellent. This is something I have long wished to see treated, and now that you have done so, I am overawed at your skill as a wordsmith. I DO love a good moral conflict. It really gets me exercised. Thank you.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 04:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 04:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 05:12 pm (UTC)Stunning... it always amazes me how you can get into their heads like that. I love how you take a character - whose projected personality is dictated by the movie-makers - and manage to flesh it out until they're their own living, breathing person (as opposed to being an extension of the actor). Marvelous.
There is nothing pretty about a death by hanging. In fact, he expects Sparrow’s death to be particularly ugly. The pirate is not a heavy man. This bit very nearly made me cry. ; . ;
This line, too, I really liked: It galls Norrington to be obliged to execute a man to whom he must also be eternally grateful.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 05:23 pm (UTC)That was a subtly horrible line.
As well it should. But it's not a perfect world, is it?
Poor James.
Beautiful work. From the silly to the sublime. You are quite amazing.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 06:58 pm (UTC)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It doesn't get more beautifuly, terribly heart-breaking htna this. Love you.
no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 09:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 09:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 09:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 09:53 pm (UTC)That horrible line--every time I see that hanging in the movie, I get chills imagining what would have happened if Will had been too late. Brrrrrr!
It's not a perfect world, indeed. And poor James is having to struggle with the knowledge that right and wrong, justice and injustice, have little to do with law and order. On the other hand, the chaos of lawlessness is also impossible. Yeah! Poor James.
All the mutually exclusive voices in my head thank you. The only antidote to all that saccharine fluff had to be something dark and bitter!
no subject
Date: 2005-11-30 10:00 pm (UTC)Wow! Thanks so much. I'm so thrilled you like what I've done with James' character. He seems like a real person to me.
The whole concept of hanging Jack Sparrow is an unbearable one. I'm glad my words show that.
That line about gratitude is an allusion to an earlier line in "Aboard the Dauntless" where Norrington is galled to have to be grateful to a pirate. I see him as having changed from that point--to have a new appreciation for at least one pirate.
Thank you so much for the lovely comments.
Re: Meep
Date: 2005-11-30 10:42 pm (UTC)The conflicts in Norrington are fun to explore. I think it may already be evident in his response to Elizabeth's "This is wrong." He bows his head and Governor Swann seems to be trying to reassure him as well as quiet Elizabeth.
Certainly this decision has to affect his relationship with Elizabeth. Even if he can convince himself what he is doing is right and necessary, he knows she believes he is doing wrong. What a foundation for a marriage! It must terrify him.
I think James sees Elizabeth as refusing to acknowlege the necessity of upholding the law and as refusing to sympathize with the difficult decisions such a duty forces him to make. But he has yet to find a place to make a personal stand on right in spite of the law. It's a huge and dangerous leap. When is it right and when is it irresponsible?
Norrington does have no choice that will reconcile him with his conscience. He cannot have Will's single-minded devotion to one clear right. He can only hope to do his best to serve as his duty dictates and pray for mercy for any sins that it requires him to commit.
Since you've been wishing for this, I'm glad you found my take on it did it justice. I love moral conflicts too. And James has the most intense conflict in the end. That one day's head start represents a most amazing change in him, and I wanted to hint at the background to that change.
Thank you so much for the lovely, long comments. You made my day! :-D
no subject
Date: 2005-12-01 05:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-01 05:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-01 06:36 am (UTC)I <3 everything you do, but this ... Indeed, you have beautifully and perfectly filled in the back story for that one day's head start. I love Norrington's "voice", the unblinking, calculating examination of all the facts, even those least savory and most wrenching. It seems so very fitting that he would force himself to look at the *whole* picture, and to do his soul-searching honestly.
And oh, how tragic that he just as clearly knows that Jack's hanging would forever stand between him and Elizabeth! Your depiction of that was marvelously phrased. Yet another reason to be grateful Will was so timely in saving Jack, as in my little world, Elizabeth and Norrington later go on to become friends. :-)
Marvelously well done, and an artful use of angst! :-)
Cheers ~
Erin
no subject
Date: 2005-12-01 07:03 am (UTC)James doesn't seem to have any illusions that Elizabeth matches his feelings for her. He has to know how his decision to hang Jack will sever whatever possibility he had of winning her regard. That one day's head start would have gone a long way towards healing that breach.
I do appreciate your comments so much. Thank you again.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-01 10:28 am (UTC)Having said that, I see it as a conflict between two rights - Norrington's own sense of personal honour and obligation, and his sense of what is right and good for society. There is no choice for him that he can make with a clear conscience; it's not as simple as him just being on the wrong side, and that's what Elizabeth and Will fail to understand.
I love this:
He knows that gallows will stand between Elizabeth and himself forever, an upraised and flaming sword, as his consent to abandon Will Turner already does. He never imagined being betrothed to the woman of his dreams could be so painful.
Which one of them is inside, and which is outside Eden, I wonder? :) But poor, poor James, all those deaths on his conscience - the deaths of the men he fought beside, and the deaths of those he has to see executed. This really brings that home to me; what a burden he's under and how sometimes there just isn't a right course of action at all, only a choice between two evils.
I loved: Oh God, how he wishes it were within his power to give her anything she asks of him. which is a heartbreaking cry, though it makes me respect him more that he might wish it but he won't do it.
And: It galls Norrington to be obliged to execute a man to whom he must also be eternally grateful, which seems to sum up why he behaves like a condemned man at the hanging when Jack himself takes it as an occupational hazard.
This definitely should be a set text on the 'how to understand Norrington 101' course! It was wonderful and so *right*, I'm going to save it to memories so I can read it frequently to keep reminding myself.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-01 02:09 pm (UTC)it would have been *right* to hang Jack, because it would be wrong to spare a man who clearly had committed crimes punishable by hanging, simply because he did you a favour.
I don't know if saving all the rest of the future victims of Barbossa counts as merely a "favour", but I'm thinking that we do not any longer hang people for anything other than murder. In an "eye for an eye" society, it still makes sense that a death=another death. But theft=death? No longer. So when does that change occur? It has to occur in the minds and philosophy of people before it occurs in law. Would James Norrington be the kind of man who would blindly uphold the law rather than one who would consider whether a law was just? I think the absence of a murder charge is fairly key here. However, no punishment at all might be going too far. Botony Bay perhaps?
Norrington definitely has a conflicted conscience. One of the things I liked about this movie is that conflict between good men and women--so much more interesting than evil vs. good. Norrington doesn't have the luxury of being free to pursue his own impulses. I wonder if he'll be paying for that one day's head start in the next movie?
I think James would see Elizabeth as his Eden, the Paradise from which he is forever barred. Elizabeth has never seen him as hers. I wanted to portray those deaths of the men on the Dauntless both in their haunting effect on Norrington and in their real heroism and meaningfulness. I've been reading about how disease was the number one killer in the Navy--far exceeding anything else. To die young was not uncommon; to die in combat was more far more rare. The statistics are appalling. I'm glad the sense of the commodore's unbearable burden comes across.
Poor James. Never leading with his heart even though it breaks his heart.
Norrington is a condemned man at Jack's hanging, and Elizabeth is his "judge and executioner," but I think so is his torn conscience. One gets the feeling that Jack actually does have a pretty clear conscience! LOL! A really underdeveloped sense of ethics! Or a well-developed sense of denial.
I'm honoured that you feel I've captured Norrington's motivations here and that you would save this. Thank you so much for the lovely, detailed comment.
Re: Meep
Date: 2005-12-01 03:05 pm (UTC)You are so right. And I think it is somewhat unfair that nobody - least of all Elizabeth - seems to care that this is the first issue of such great responsibility that he has to deal with. I'm reminded of the time Homer joined the Navy. "It's my first day."
You did it with such panache and so true to the character that it's hard to believe that this scene wasn't in the movie. That, I think, is the best aspect of fanfiction: we can return to something that for whatever reason was ignored in the movie, examine it and shape it so that it fits into what we know and love on screen. This scene will forever be in the back of my mind whenever I watch the movie.
You are more than welcome! I do love to waffle about the things I love. And your fics make my day!
Re: Meep
Date: 2005-12-01 11:30 pm (UTC)I do like solving all my problems with the movie in the fiction I write--although I do write very canonical as much as possible. And I like finding the points of compassion for all the characters--the place where I can say, if nothing else, I understand and can forgive. I'm looking forward to writing more of the "villains" of this piece--Barbossa's pirates. I'm honoured that you feel I've captured this unseen moment with Norrington well enough to colour the seen moments.
Two comments on one piece! *grins foolishly* I feel greatly enriched. Thank you.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-02 11:20 am (UTC)I'm thinking that we do not any longer hang people for anything other than murder.
Strangely enough, because I come from a country that no longer has the death penalty, and therefore tend to feel that executing people at all is wrong, I cannot apply my modern standards to 18th Century punishments at all.
In an "eye for an eye" society, it still makes sense that a death=another death. But theft=death? No longer. So when does that change occur? It has to occur in the minds and philosophy of people before it occurs in law. Would James Norrington be the kind of man who would blindly uphold the law rather than one who would consider whether a law was just? I think the absence of a murder charge is fairly key here. However, no punishment at all might be going too far. Botony Bay perhaps?
I know what you mean, and yes, I would see James as being the sort of person who would hesitate to hang a man for (say) stealing food when he and his family were destitute and had no means of earning money. That is the sort of obvious case of injustice which would lead James and men like him to question whether hanging was justified.
But Jack is not being condemned for theft, he's being condemned for piracy. He boards ships and takes their cargoes, he sacks towns. Even if it's done without killing people (which I find highly unlikely btw) it must necessarily cause enormous hardship, possibly even death by starvation/the ruination of people's businesses etc to the people he's robbed. This is, after all, the 18th Century and death is closer, there are no safety nets, no social security etc, which is why theft was seen as a much more serious thing in those days - because having your stuff stolen can lead to you dying in a debtor's prison.
And why does Jack rob people of their hard earned money? Not because he's starving and he needs it to live, but so that he can have 'freedom' - a freedom that's paid for by harming others.
I think Jack has a clear conscience at his hanging because he knows this is the price of living the life he lives, and he has long ago accepted that.
Of course, Justice is never really enough, and at some point you start getting into personal liking and life-debts and the higher claims of mercy and Grace. But I don't think you can do that without acknowledging that by the standards of the day Jack deserves to hang.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-02 02:19 pm (UTC)he wasn't out to get Barbossa for the sake of those future victims, he was out to get his ship back.
There is certainly that way of looking at it, though I'm not sure Jack doesn't realize he could have gotten his ship back like Elizabeth did, rather than bother to save Will Turner. But I'll grant, his motives are suspect.
I don't think it's completely clear that she would have drowned before James got to her. He was on the scene pretty quickly after all.
Just looking at the geography of the scene, the fort was a bit of a long way from the docks. I don't know if men on foot could have made it far enough down from the fort and then done the diving within the five minutes it would have taken Elizabeth to drown.
I cannot apply my modern standards to 18th Century punishments at all.
I also live in a country with no death penalty. I'm even a vegetarian! LOL! But I have studied the ways in which laws change through that time period until the twentieth century. It's amazing how far back the ideas that eventually make the changes go. Certainly, by law Jack has committed hangable offenses--as Norrington acknowleges here.
But Jack is not being condemned for theft, he's being condemned for piracy. He boards ships and takes their cargoes, he sacks towns.
I'll be interested to see where they take this character in the next movies. Your comment inspired me to enumerate the crimes we actually "know" Jack Sparrow "has" committed. He steals Anamaria's boat. He picks the purse of a corrupt dock official. He takes Elizabeth hostage, although he lets her go when it would have been in his best interests to hang onto her. He commandeers the Interceptor. So does Will Turner. As for his historical crimes, he sacks Nassau Port, a notorious pirate town which Norrington himself would probably like to clean out, and he runs afoul of the East India Company, whose members were not called Nabobs for nothing--not likely to starve for the loss of one ship.
Even if it's done without killing people (which I find highly unlikely btw)
Yes, I have Norrington incredulous about that as well, but the charge is manifestly not there. I've listened for it both in the movie and in the behind the scenes parts where the text is clearer. There is no conceivable way that charge would not have been there if it could have been.
cause enormous hardship, possibly even death by starvation/the ruination of people's businesses . . . theft was seen as a much more serious thing in those days - because having your stuff stolen can lead to you dying in a debtor's prison
Certainly true, depending who was the victim. Of course, inhabitants of the Caribbean did have a better environment for survival than those of England. Also there is a huge double standard. The entire island of Jamaica was stolen from its original inhabitants as was the rest of the Caribbean; those inhabitants will not survive that theft; the economy of Jamaica is based hugely on the labour of slaves who were stolen from their own countries and whose life spans are shockingly short due to the terrible treatment they receive; piracy is condemned only if pirates attack one's own people--if they attack one's enemies as privateers, all is forgiven. There were people who had noticed some of this by this time. I think it all comes down to everyone in this time period lives by theft as much as they can get away with. The question is who one steals from. And that question is still not entirely clear on Jack Sparrow.
I think Jack has a clear conscience at his hanging because he knows this is the price of living the life he lives, and he has long ago accepted that.
I think you're right here. He's getting the consequences of his choices.
by the standards of the day Jack deserves to hang.
And of course, this is why Norrington, who is a good man, is hanging him, even though he seems very torn about it.
I always like hearing from you. The discussions are mentally stimulating, and your "not a pirate fan" approach is refreshing! Thanks so much.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-02 03:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-02 05:15 pm (UTC)Oh yes, I'm fully behind the idea that Will should hang too :)
I suppose there's some hope that dealing leniently with Will will result in him turning aside from piracy and settling down to become a productive member of society again, and there isn't really that hope with Jack. But I'd have called it justice if Will had hanged too. (To me, James' agreement not to go after Will is an acknowledgement of that. Rescue him just to hang him? What's the point?)
the charge is manifestly not there.
Oh yes, I'm not denying that Jack is not accused of murder, I simply find it hard to believe that neither he nor any of his crew has ever killed anyone in the course of robbing them (particularly given who his ex-crew are). He must be extraordinarily skilled in picking people who will surrender without a fight!
I can see that on the evidence of the film I may have to accept this as part of the fairytale of PotC (just like the Naval ships that don't bother having lookouts). It just pings my 'suspension of disbelief' radar, if you know what I mean. It's one of those things where I really don't see how it works.
Also there is a huge double standard. The entire island of Jamaica was stolen from its original inhabitants as was the rest of the Caribbean; those inhabitants will not survive that theft; the economy of Jamaica is based hugely on the labour of slaves who were stolen from their own countries
I'm not denying that, but look at it this way; our own societies in the West are still underpinned by the world bank's policy of loansharking to poor countries; we're essentially robbing the least priviledged people in the world to finance our lifestyles. But does that justify me going out and stealing my neighbour's car? I don't think it does.
Of course, if Jack were busy working for the emancipation of slaves and the establishment of a fairer society, that would be a different matter entirely, but just freeloading on top of the mess is (IMO) not a position of moral superiority. At least Norrington is *trying* to serve others, Jack's attitude is just (in his own words) to take what he can and give nothing back.
It's not that I don't understand the wish to *not* see Jack hang. He's an entertaining sort of chap and they do owe him to a certain extent, and it doesn't seem exactly sporting to hang him after what they've been through together.
But in my book it's a bit like in The Talented Mr Ripley, when you know Tom's a murderer twice over, yet you still want him to get away with it. Or the kind of Great Train Robbery movie where you want the thieves to get away with it, not because it's unjust or wrong that they should be punished, but just because you like them so much.
*g* I'm glad I'm not annoying you with all of this. I admit that my opinion is not a popular one. I'm arrogant enough to think that that makes no difference to whether it's right or not, but if it's irritating, I can just as easily shut up :)
Re: Meep
Date: 2005-12-02 05:51 pm (UTC)That is just so true; I'm slightly disappointed that they didn't think to write it into the film at all - even in the deleted scenes. But your fic does make for an excellent reparation!
And you do it so well!
Me too!
As far as I'm concerned, they're not comments, they are part of a conversation! But I'll stop waffling now!
Thank you!
Re: Meep
Date: 2005-12-02 07:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-02 08:12 pm (UTC)But I'd have called it justice if Will had hanged too. (To me, James' agreement not to go after Will is an acknowledgement of that. Rescue him just to hang him? What's the point?)
Certainly Norrington is not the kind of man to abandon Will if he didn't believe it to be a right thing to do. But he looks uncomfortable about it in the movie. In my unpublished novelization of the end of the movie, I have James consider that he could put a stop to Will and Elizabeth by anything up to and including hanging Will. The fact that pirates were branded at times seems to suggest that, at least for a first capture, a second chance was possible. Of course after Will breaks Jack loose a second time, he really could have been in for it if Norrington had decided to press charges.
It just pings my 'suspension of disbelief' radar, if you know what I mean.
Yes, I'm more inclined to believe there wasn't enough evidence to charge him, or he didn't get caught, than that it didn't happen, although Jack does seem to prefer to run rather than fight. Other great moments are boarding parties made up of the entire ship's crew! What?! I'm having to consider whether I can bear the idiocy or if I'd rather have Jack dump at least a couple of men off the Interceptor before taking it when I novelize that part.
our own societies in the West are still underpinned by the world bank's policy of loansharking to poor countries; we're essentially robbing the least priviledged people in the world to finance our lifestyles.
Oh yes! Don't even get me started on how we are absolutely no better than any of our crooked ancestors! I'm sure every generation can look back with horror on what its predecessors have done. We will be no exception.
But does that justify me going out and stealing my neighbour's car? I don't think it does.
It certainly doesn't. However, some of the despairing people, trapped in the bilges of our society, do stir my compassion even in their lawlessness. In a system that squashes so many so thoroughly, forgiveness, although not necessarily pardon, is at least in order for some who strike back. I am not a fan of the victim mentality, however.
you want the thieves to get away with it, not because it's unjust or wrong that they should be punished, but just because you like them so much.
It's a funny sort of literary perversion--this love of the lawbreaker. And there's so much of that sort of thing! The British Romantics loved Milton's Satan--the ultimate flouter of the ultimate authority--even though he ends up being a pretty mean tawdry sort of villain in the end. Perhaps there's a little catharsis for those of us who would never dare break our own chains or thumb our noses at our own oppressors to enjoy watching lovable fictional characters do it.
I'm arrogant enough to think that that makes no difference to whether it's right or not,
Right and wrong. What a concept. I do believe in it, but I also believe it's hopelessly tangled. And while the elephant is indeed very like a spear, it is no less very like a rope and a tree. Truth is pretty complex. But yes, Virginia, there is an Elephant. (Am I allowed to make obscure literary allusions?) And one does have to take a stand. Some things are a lot righter than others.
Thanks for the great conversation. I'm enjoying it very much.
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Date: 2005-12-02 08:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-04 06:43 pm (UTC)I have James consider that he could put a stop to Will and Elizabeth by anything up to and including hanging Will.
Yes, that must have been a big temptation for him after the second time. It's one of those fangirl squee moments for me that it's Norrington's generosity and magnanimity which enable the film to have a happy ending at all. And from the jaunty way he walks off afterwards it seems to me that he knows himself that he has just defeated a serious temptation to do the dishonourable thing - he knows that he has triumphed, rather than failed.
To have had Will executed and forced Liz to marry him would have been a moral failure of the worst sort, and I think he's very pleased with himself at the end that he didn't descend to that. He's been able to restore his own sense of self worth, so he comes out of the experience richer too, IMO.
I can see that Jack's normal modus operandi *is* to avoid a fight if at all possible - he won't shoot Will, he talks his way out of fighting with Gillette + co. But that only works when the other parties are as willing as he is to avoid bloodshed. If Gillette had said 'get them, lads', I really don't see how he could have avoided killing a sailor or two in self defence, and not every officer can possibly be as solicitous over the health of his men as Gillette is. So I'm with you in just thinking that Jack might try his hardest not to kill people but that it is an occupational hazard that he can't have avoided completely.
Other great moments are boarding parties made up of the entire ship's crew! What?!
It is completely ridiculous isn't it? How Norrington ever became 'the scourge of piracy in the Caribbean' if his men are all as incompetant and badly trained as that, I have no idea.
I explained (?) it in my mind as a miscommunication between the Interceptor's Captain and Norrington; the Captain thought that Norrington would pick boarding parties, Norrington assumed the Captain had already picked them - the result being that the men didn't know who was supposed to go and who was supposed to stay, so they all went. It's thin, but it's the best I can do.
In a system that squashes so many so thoroughly, forgiveness, although not necessarily pardon, is at least in order for some who strike back.
I quite agree, which is why I tend to feel that the war on terrorism ought to be fought with trade justice, talking to them and maybe trying to ask forgiveness for some of the injustices *we've* done in the past. But I suppose that leads me to an 'oh, poor Mr.Gibbs, forced into a life of crime when he could have been Master of the Dauntless by now' attitude, rather than the 'whee, piracy's so great!' attitude that I tend to get from the movie.
Perhaps there's a little catharsis for those of us who would never dare break our own chains
I'm sure that's it :) And I'm simply not into rebellion because I'm fortunate enough not to have anything that needs rebelling about.
yes, Virginia, there is an Elephant. LOL! Yes, there is, but if 90% of the people think it's like a rope, it must be more important for the 10% who think it's like a treetrunk to speak out, otherwise there's even less chance of getting enough data to discover the whole.
But I agree, it's hopelessly tangled. I'm struggling with it myself at the moment for the last chapter of 'Mutiny'. Can murder ever be justified - that kind of thing. It's making my head hurt!
Thanks for the great conversation. I'm enjoying it very much.
Likewise! Thanks!
Re: Meep
Date: 2005-12-05 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 12:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 02:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 05:55 pm (UTC)Wonderfully done, my dear!
~sinningia~
no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 06:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 10:23 pm (UTC)Lines that particularly caught my notice:
Tonight he could almost envy the men who have served their country with their deaths. The strain of serving with his life seems an unbearable burden.
but he merely feels an exhausted desire for the whole sordid business to be over.
You did a very good job conveying Norrington's weariness, not just in this line but in the previous paragraph as well, and this line sums it up well and really evoked an empathetic understanding from the reader (or at least from this reader). :-)
Jack Sparrow. Oh. Not one of Barbossa’s lot tomorrow, then.
A subtle way of underscoring how weary Norrington is - that he is not even aware that Jack Sparrow was to be hung the next day.
The corner of James’ mouth quirks ever so slightly. What he wouldn’t give to know the stories behind those last two.
James feelings regarding Elizabeth and hanging Sparrow are heartrending, especially this line: Oh God, how he wishes it were within his power to give her anything she asks of him. Because that there is what Elizabeth does not understand, will not understand - that James loves her and would give her anything if it were within his power, but it is not - he is bound to his duty, just as he told Sparrow on the Dauntless, "by remembering that I serve others and not only myself"... But he knows that Elizabeth will never forgive him for doing his duty and that it will always stand between them. *aaawwww, poor, dear, tortured James..*
May God have mercy on your soul, Jack Sparrow. May God have mercy on mine.
Excellent closing line!! Chilling, angsty, very fitting.
Again, wonderfully done! :-)
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Date: 2005-12-07 10:42 pm (UTC)At that hanging Norrington looks more in the dock than Jack.
It's good to hear that the exhaustion of disagreeable necessity comes through to you. James' has had to give up his personal happiness and the quietness of his conscience for the sake of his duty. No wonder the poor man scarcely smiles.
I imagine that the string of pirates parading through that noose is starting to be a blur. And yes, the commodore is so overwhelmed, he hardly knows what day it is--living by his pre-ordained schedule, going through the motions.
The tragedy of Elizabeth and James is that they are two good people on the opposites sides of a moral dilemma. James is not free to fly to her side of the chasm. Will, who is free, does. And I think that "Pea in the Pod" Elizabeth prizes freedom very highly. I can't see her happy joining James in his chains. Poor James, indeed.
Thank you so much for the lovely detailed comments. You make me very happy! :D
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Date: 2005-12-07 10:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 11:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-07 11:36 pm (UTC)yes, he does, doesn't he? Poor fellow. And all the pirate fans out there are hating him at that moment and thinking him cold, heartless, ruthless...not seeing the tortured soul beneath the controlled exterior.
No wonder the poor man scarcely smiles.
And it is such a shame, he has such a lovely smile. *cuddles dear James* (hopeless norrington!fangirl, I know) :-) I hope the PotC world proves a little kinder to him in the next movies...but not at the expense of making him pirate!Norrington... (please, no, no...)
I can't see her happy joining James in his chains. Poor James, indeed.
Even though I feel terribly for Norrington because the woman he loves rejects him, I believe that they would not have been a good match, and Elizabeth's high regard to freedom versus James' commitment to duty and honour is a part of the reason why. If they were on the same side of that moral chasm, then that would be a different story... With all the stress and burdens of his job, Norrington would really do better with a supportive wife, rather than one who would be ever straining against convention and duty.
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Date: 2005-12-08 12:15 am (UTC)I imagine that wherever the next movie takes him, James will always serve others, not merely himself.
I do think that while Elizabeth may not be the right wife for James, the two of them would make good friends. Each of them has something to teach the other. Of course Elizabeth is young and still has some growing up to do, but she has her own sense of honour and devotion. And James knows what it's like to search for the right path in the fog of grey areas, how to make the hard choices.
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Date: 2005-12-08 12:40 am (UTC)DragonLady
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Date: 2005-12-08 11:19 am (UTC)I don't know if I see the gap between Elizabeth and James as being one entirely of maturity. I think there's also a philosophical gap. Do the needs of the many always outweigh the needs of the one? (To borrow some philosophy from another fandom of mine. :D) For James, they do. For Elizabeth, the many are the one--I don't think even at my age I could contemplate being the cause of the death of someone with anything but horror (and Elizabeth's rescue from drowning is the direct cause of Jack Sparrow being on that gallows, as was her attempt to save Port Royal the cause of Will's life-threatening position earlier). Nor, for her, is this just a pirate being hanged, but a friend of sorts. Even Norrington does not hang his friend of sorts, Will Turner--although he could have; the law would have allowed it. So I see the issue of Sparrow's hanging as one in which there are two irreconcilable right choices--neither of which is perfect. James decision to allow that day's head start shows how torn he is by the choice he has made. That Elizabeth and James would not be right for each other is a tragedy, but good people are not necessarily all meant for marriage.
One of the reasons Elizabeth has to resort to such desperate tricks and strategems is her position as a political non-entity as a woman, particularly a young one. She has absolutely no legitimate means of influencing her environment and the men of power who surround her.
(It is obviously way too late at night and I am babbling *takes in the slack of her jaw*) I do thank you so much for the lovely feedback (and your potential patience with the babble).
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Date: 2007-04-01 03:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-05 06:22 am (UTC)I'm glad you liked this picture of Norrington. Belated thanks for commenting.